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Hi!
I only accidentally just found out about bforartists (why oh why doesn’t blender.org have a full list of links!!!?) after a month of committing to it.
At first i was delighted, then crushed. You see, I downloaded it (windows installer version flagged by my virus checker as trojaned, so i chose .zip version), installed it. When opened it seemed operational. I closed it but when i returned to reopen it it just flashed a screen of command-line text and closed. I reinstalled it but same thing happened. Shriek! Please please please, can anybody help!???
My program improvement idea is very simple but i think would help usability a lot. Adding icons does help, but there are so many (needed) that they’re tiny. A mouse-over zoomed image would be great. Add a toggle of course, but being able to see it more clearly,, with a label would help a lot. I hope you adopt my idea!
Yes, the fact, that BfA gets flaged by windows and the virus scanner is a complete turn off. If I wouldn´t have used the “portable” version before, I might actually have dismissed it as usable.- Which would have been real shame, since it is such a great program.
Not sure, what´s going on with the install on your computer, did you try to delete the BfA directory and the directory it created in C:UsersYOUR-USERAppDataRoamingBforartists … and then started with a freshly unziped version?
Hi Infinity,
Sorry for the trouble.
Hard to say what went wrong. Not enough informations. The command line content would be of interest, your system specs, and if the same thing happens with Blender too.
Could you please file a bug report to the tracker? Then we could talk about the needed informations. https://www.bforartists.de/project/issues/bforartists_bugtracker
My program improvement idea is very simple but i think would help usability a lot. Adding icons does help, but there are so many (needed) that they’re tiny. A mouse-over zoomed image would be great. Add a toggle of course, but being able to see it more clearly,, with a label would help a lot. I hope you adopt my idea!
Nice idea, but that’s technically impossibe, sorry. The tooltip can just contain text.
As for the antivirus issue, i really start to hate those companies. They really flag everything as positive nowadays to show the users their oh so big importance. My guess is that those snakeoil manufracturers doesn’t like gzip zipped installers. And Bforartists is a gzip zipped installer to keep the file size small. We simply cannot offer installers with unzipped content in the triple or quad size of the regular zipfile.
I will have a look if we can do something different with the next installer. But even then, we don’t have signed installers. I will never pay anything for the permission to install an installer without a warning. That’s crazy.
Kind regards
Reiner
Yeah, a lot of software I’ve installed outside of Bforartists also have similar warnings, specifically older ones. Best to just ignore and let it install. You can tone down Windows paranoia quite a bit if necessary with the UAC controls, or permission controls – or add the exception to the antivirus database.
:dance:
Hey Davis- Thanks for reply! My install problem was so dumb i blush to confess it: but since spelling it out will probably help other idiots, i’ll come clean. When i opened BFA folder i clicked on the first exe i saw. Only it was Blenderplayer.exe. Doh!
Speaking of speaking in simple sentences with short words, maybe you guys should reconsider your post format- it’s so cluttered with text formatting options i thought it was a glitch, not working at all, till i found main field for text. Just a thought.
Anyway.. Since original post i rethought my zoom icons idea. I still think it’s a good idea- would help people (read: with bad eyes) locate the right icon. Maybe you could just mention the problem and provide a link to some third-party magnifier (tho so far i’ve found all of them to be usability nightmares)?
Speaking of usability- i think it would help if, in your intro ReadMe you mentioned the whole interactive-mode issue, and its implications. I saw Reiner’s intro video and i’m confused about it (again!
). If i use BFA in Blender mode does that mean i get all Blender’s original hotkeys?
Since stumbling across BFA i’ve read some comments on it, vs. original Blender. Now i see that of course it bars one from benefits of many main Blender tutorials. That can’t be helped, as add-ons incompatibility can’t be helped. And the biggest criticism i could find said that tho Blender hotkey reliance is a PITA to learn, once done, one will be faster at tasks (and that BFA would slow down or stop that learning process). That gave me pause.
You may decide not to write such a general pros and cons summary but i hope you’ll tell me (and others) what proportion/percentage of B. hotkeys dfifer, or are blocked in BFA.
That would sure help me decide whether it’s a net benefit to commit to BFA or not. So far i suspect it will be, but i’d appreciate your clarification.
Another question: what reaction are you folks getting from the main developer community? Are they heeding your fine work, or freezing you out? It’s not just of gossipy interest because if they’re snubbing you, all the weight of continuing the push for usability will continue to fall on your shoulders, and how long can you keep it up?
Well, anyway, a long post. I hope you’ll consider my mouse-over zoom suggestion, and answer my hotkey compatibility question. Thanks for your patience.
PS: one last thing- unless i was imperceptive again, i noticed your manual wasn’t downloadable. I tend to go stretches without home internet, so i’d really like to see it made downloadable. (It took Blender.org a very long time to add that feature.)
What did the sadist do to the masochist? Nothing
Ah, sorry to hear about the accident with clicking at the wrong exe. But glad you got it working then.
Phew, lots of questions. Let’s have a look if i can answer at least a few.
Anyway.. Since original post i rethought my zoom icons idea. I still think it’s a good idea- would help people (read: with bad eyes) locate the right icon. Maybe you could just mention the problem and provide a link to some third-party magnifier (tho so far i’ve found all of them to be usability nightmares)?
The idea is not bad, it’s just not dobable, sorry
Speaking of speaking in simple sentences with short words, maybe you guys should reconsider your post format- it’s so cluttered with text formatting options i thought it was a glitch, not working at all, till i found main field for text. Just a thought.
What exactly do you mean?
If i use BFA in Blender mode does that mean i get all Blender’s original hotkeys?
When we talk about the Interaction in the splash screen, yes. When you switch to Blender keymap, then you get the Blender keymap. Some keys may be disfunctional though. Haven’t had the time to check the Blender keymap yet.
You have to save the User Preferences to make the changes permanent then. Otherwise it will start with the Bforartists keymap again.
Since stumbling across BFA i’ve read some comments on it, vs. original Blender. Now i see that of course it bars one from benefits of many main Blender tutorials
Why should it? The tools are the same. And you can even with the Bforartists hotkey map easily follow most Blender tutorials. As long as they are really tutorials, and not the usual spelling lessons what hotkey comes after what hotkey.
what reaction are you folks getting from the main developer community?
That’s a dark chapter in the Bforartists history. Hardcore Trolling up to characater assassination from some folks of the community and even a few developers who thinks that Blender UI is best. I keep my hands away from Blender communities these days. This happens without me. And they usually don’t mention me with a word anymore. Which is a big improvement compared to what they did with me before. Just a few hardcore trolls are still active out there.
You may decide not to write such a general pros and cons summary but i hope you’ll tell me (and others) what proportion/percentage of B. hotkeys dfifer, or are blocked in BFA.
Here every opinion is allowed.
As for the differences, it’s not this much actually, but we have currently lots of hotkeys simply removed. You best have a look here: https://www.bforartists.de/wiki/Quickstart#changes
unless i was imperceptive again, i noticed your manual wasn’t downloadable.
Right click at the link, and choose “Save As”
EDIT, i have placed a hint in the manual page now. You can also choose the browser file menu when you have a PDF open, and save the file from there.
Kind regards
Reiner
As for the zoom idea, if it is only about bad eye sight, you can simply scale the whole interface permanently to the desired size. Reiner even made a video on this. – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCTKR179WNQ
I also find using only the icons a bit confusing, since there are so many, but you can also have the text permanently enabled next to them, which gives the best of both worlds, easy location of the functions you know and easy finding of the functions you don´t know so well yet.
No problem about the zoom icons idea- it’s doable by using simple screen magnifier. That adds a little clutter but it beats alternative. I was also thinking that with complex models it’s probably worth using.
What exactly do i mean about forum post clutter? Exactly this (please see attached jpeg). No offense- but it’s a mess. Really- shame on you guys- you’re SuperCoders- absolutely perfect!
About hotkeys- i’m sorry- but all your explanations about keymaps went way over my head. I just don’t understand what the upshot of all this is. Let me rephrase: if i learn Blender through BFA to what extent will i be learning different hotkeys? 10% 20%…?
What i’m hoping is that BFA’s icons will buy me time to learn all the hotkeys, ease the start of the learning curve. So what, in your estimation, WHAT IN BFA WOULD I HAVE TO UNLEARN? if say, 6 months from now, you and/or your team got overwhelmed and gave up, and we all had to return to Blender. Sorry if i seem rude here, but i have to examine the worst case.
I followed your quickstart link, but didn’t follow much of it. I gather that ALL Blender standard hotkeys are lost if BFA used in BFA mode, and most (half?) are lost with keymap set in Blender mode. ? Not good news. I think you may have overshot a bit.
I’m unsurprised by your troll difficulties. I see 3 problems: we’re humans (1] scared little monkeys huddling in groups, fearfully, 2] NIH- old engineers joke: “Not Invented Here!”, and 3] nerd-itus (“Us Real Men use text string commands, hotkeys at worst- no girly icons for us!”). But seriously, that’s bad news. I must ask: do you expect to do a 2.8 version of BFA?
Thanks for manual tip!
Cheers!
Infinice
PS: re nerditus- i wrote a Blender rep and mentioned the interface, contrasting it to Cinema4D. He wrote back snidely, remarking on how it was ok “for casual users”. Hilarious! I’m sure C4D users would be amused.
Thanks for the link. I watched the video but i can’t see using this scaling trick much, because it works at the expense of the center 3D viewport: magnify the menus/headers and you shrink the viewport.
I prefer my magnifier-in-corner fix. I’m using one called “Magnify Desktop”, from Softpedia.com. A crude ‘fast and dirty’ low-tec workaround but it works for me.
Infinice
No problem about the zoom icons idea- it’s doable by using simple screen magnifier. That adds a little clutter but it beats alternative. I was also thinking that with complex models it’s probably worth using.
Ah i see. But it’s not doable by us. I fear you have to continue with screen magnifier
I think you may have overshot a bit.
Yep. Looks like that. But nothing’s lost since it’s still under development. We had to remove the disturbing hotkeys to create a good fundament. Even nowadays we run into hotkey conflicts here and there. And this needs to be fixed and sorted out first before introducing a full keymap again.See next point
What i’m hoping is that BFA’s icons will buy me time to learn all the hotkeys, ease the start of the learning curve. So what, in your estimation, WHAT IN BFA WOULD I HAVE TO UNLEARN? if say, 6 months from now, you and/or your team got overwhelmed and gave up, and we all had to return to Blender. Sorry if i seem rude here, but i have to examine the worst case.
Not this much. The tools are the same. But at the same time a lot. All the things that are improvements compared to Blender.
You can setup the Blender keymap in the same way than in Bforartists. In fact Draise is working at a full keymap at the moment that brings the benefits from the Bforartists keymap, and includes the Blender keymap for the rest. The ones that we have currently removed. And this keymap should be usable in Blender too then.
There is even some functionality available as addons. The navigation buttons in the header of the 3D view for example is an addon that’s also available for Blender.
What you have to relearn is searching. Digging in sub menus where the tool is hidden. And scrolling. And what would be missing is the icon buttons, the toolbar, and quite a few of Bforartists only functionality. Like the hidable and lockable 3D cursor. In short, you would have to relearn the cumbersome Blender way to do things.
I’m unsurprised by your troll difficulties. I see 3 problems: we’re humans (1] scared little monkeys huddling in groups, fearfully, 2] NIH- old engineers joke: “Not Invented Here!”, and 3] nerd-itus (“Us Real Men use text string commands, hotkeys at worst- no girly icons for us!”). But seriously, that’s bad news. I must ask: do you expect to do a 2.8 version of BFA?
I wasn’t really surprised neither. But there is a point when it becomes simply too much. And character assassination is no go.
Sure we will do a 2.8 version of Bforartists. I have no plans to stop the project
One reason to stop the project would be when they would make Bforartists obsolete by a better UI design. But i don’t see this happen with 2.8. They make the mess even bigger at the moment from what i can see. I still hope that i am wrong here …
PS: re nerditus- i wrote a Blender rep and mentioned the interface, contrasting it to Cinema4D. He wrote back snidely, remarking on how it was ok “for casual users”. Hilarious! I’m sure C4D users would be amused.
please see attached jpeg
There is no jpeg ^^
Sorry about missing jpeg, but i tried (see joke below). I’ll just describe it: under Comments there is a field of text descriptors: i.e. maximize, boldKeyboard short, italicKeyboard shortcut etc. etc. And under that the much-smaller actual text input field.
I’ll look forward to Draise’s new keymap, and hope it’s documented clearly for benefit of noobs like me.
Thanks for all your patience- i think i’m oriented now, know what to expect from BFA, so i’ll just get on with the shovelling part- the actual learning. (I think the world’s best interfaced 3D would still be a nightmare barring haptic input- because it’s sculpting by robot manipulator/remote control, inherently left-hemisphere, anti-right-hemisphere/artist!).
Infinice
Why are craputers, er, computers, like hemmorhoids? When you sit down the pain returns!
PS: sorry, can’t remember how i found BFA.
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